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> <channel><title>Comments on: When A &#8216;Mount Fuji&#8217; Question Is Not Really A &#8216;Mount Fuji&#8217; Question (Are You As Smart As You Think You Are)</title> <atom:link href="http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/</link> <description>For the betterment of the software craft...</description> <lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2011 13:57:06 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2</generator> <item><title>By: Ali Razeen &#187; The Introduction of Puzzles</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-7144</link> <dc:creator>Ali Razeen &#187; The Introduction of Puzzles</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2011 10:01:52 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-7144</guid> <description>[...] had a faint idea of what I wanted to do. Two days ago, during my daily browsing, I came across this article and that did it. Ladies and Gentlemen, I present you: [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] had a faint idea of what I wanted to do. Two days ago, during my daily browsing, I came across this article and that did it. Ladies and Gentlemen, I present you: [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Josh</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-7142</link> <dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2011 16:56:03 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-7142</guid> <description>What if there were more sinners than days until destruction? What if one of the sinners wasn&#039;t smart enough to figure this out? These are actually both riddles, not logic problems, because while they do have a correct answer, and while it is an algorithm, the algorithm is a trick that you pretty much have to have heard ahead of time, or do problems like this frequently, in order to figure it out.
I&#039;m with Robert, I think these interview questions reveal a disrespectful interviewer. Also I don&#039;t really want to work at a place where my coworkers qualifications are that they happen to be good at riddles.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if there were more sinners than days until destruction? What if one of the sinners wasn&#8217;t smart enough to figure this out? These are actually both riddles, not logic problems, because while they do have a correct answer, and while it is an algorithm, the algorithm is a trick that you pretty much have to have heard ahead of time, or do problems like this frequently, in order to figure it out.</p><p>I&#8217;m with Robert, I think these interview questions reveal a disrespectful interviewer. Also I don&#8217;t really want to work at a place where my coworkers qualifications are that they happen to be good at riddles.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Josh</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-7141</link> <dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2011 12:44:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-7141</guid> <description>Finally a decent answer, thank you.
Also, I&#039;d be incredibly insulted if anyone asked me a question like this in an interview.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally a decent answer, thank you.</p><p>Also, I&#8217;d be incredibly insulted if anyone asked me a question like this in an interview.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: sunny</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-7089</link> <dc:creator>sunny</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:57:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-7089</guid> <description>u must be a bad developer....since you didnt save long comment before submit, is that how you treat your code also....bad boy</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>u must be a bad developer&#8230;.since you didnt save long comment before submit, is that how you treat your code also&#8230;.bad boy</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Bue</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-6843</link> <dc:creator>Bue</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 20:30:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-6843</guid> <description>Found a solution for the second question. (finally)
&quot;Devise a winning strategy when you know that the initial state of the switch is off.&quot;
Before they are locked up, they count how many people there is in the prison. Then they choose one person as a counter. Then everybody, except the counter, turn the switch on if it&#039;s off and do nothing if it&#039;s on. They can only turn on the switch once. The counter counts how many times he turns the lights off and when the count is the amount of people in the prison (besides himself), then he will declare that everybody have ben in the room at least once and win.
&quot;Devise a winning strategy when you do not know whether the initial state of the switch is on or off.&quot;
Using the same strategy here would result in a one man uncertainty. If the initial state is on, then the finish count would be the amount of people + 1 (excluding the counter). If the initial state is off, then finish count would be the amount of people (excluding the counter).
This can be solved if everybody turn on the lights two times. Then the finish count would be the amount of people (excluding the count) times two.
example with 3 people and 1 counter
Case 1: The initial state is off. 3 people turn on the switch twice and the counter declares that everybody have been in the room on count 6.
Case 2: The initial state is on (So the count starts at 1). 2 out of 3 flips the switch twice (so the current count is 5). Then counter can&#039;t declare that everyone have been in the room before the last person enters the room and turn the switch on.
Couldn&#039;t solve the one with the sinners without assuming that they knew the amount of sinners though. It&#039;s not forbidden to tell people that they are not sinners right?
Well, I enjoyed the questions but I totally forgot about the rest of your post. *Bookmarked*</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Found a solution for the second question. (finally)<br
/> &#8220;Devise a winning strategy when you know that the initial state of the switch is off.&#8221;<br
/> Before they are locked up, they count how many people there is in the prison. Then they choose one person as a counter. Then everybody, except the counter, turn the switch on if it&#8217;s off and do nothing if it&#8217;s on. They can only turn on the switch once. The counter counts how many times he turns the lights off and when the count is the amount of people in the prison (besides himself), then he will declare that everybody have ben in the room at least once and win.</p><p>&#8220;Devise a winning strategy when you do not know whether the initial state of the switch is on or off.&#8221;<br
/> Using the same strategy here would result in a one man uncertainty. If the initial state is on, then the finish count would be the amount of people + 1 (excluding the counter). If the initial state is off, then finish count would be the amount of people (excluding the counter).<br
/> This can be solved if everybody turn on the lights two times. Then the finish count would be the amount of people (excluding the count) times two.</p><p>example with 3 people and 1 counter<br
/> Case 1: The initial state is off. 3 people turn on the switch twice and the counter declares that everybody have been in the room on count 6.</p><p>Case 2: The initial state is on (So the count starts at 1). 2 out of 3 flips the switch twice (so the current count is 5). Then counter can&#8217;t declare that everyone have been in the room before the last person enters the room and turn the switch on.</p><p>Couldn&#8217;t solve the one with the sinners without assuming that they knew the amount of sinners though. It&#8217;s not forbidden to tell people that they are not sinners right?</p><p>Well, I enjoyed the questions but I totally forgot about the rest of your post. *Bookmarked*</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Taker of noncensus</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-6810</link> <dc:creator>Taker of noncensus</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 06:25:16 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-6810</guid> <description>For problem 2, in your replies to a few comments you said that the N thing can be ignored.  That is not true -- the N thing is important.
Suppose we only knew this:  &#039;Each prisoner will visit the &quot;switch room&quot; arbitrarily often.&#039;  In such a case, the warden could arrange that the census taker will visit the switch room once at a time when it&#039;s too early to answer, and never visit again.  If the warden doesn&#039;t know who the census taker is then the warden picks a bunch of people at random so the warden has a bunch of chances of winning instead of being sure of winning.
We do need this: &#039;More precisely, for any N, eventually each of you will visit the &quot;switch room&quot; at least N times.&#039; Now we are guaranteed that the census taker will eventually get the full count.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For problem 2, in your replies to a few comments you said that the N thing can be ignored.  That is not true &#8212; the N thing is important.</p><p>Suppose we only knew this:  &#8216;Each prisoner will visit the &#8220;switch room&#8221; arbitrarily often.&#8217;  In such a case, the warden could arrange that the census taker will visit the switch room once at a time when it&#8217;s too early to answer, and never visit again.  If the warden doesn&#8217;t know who the census taker is then the warden picks a bunch of people at random so the warden has a bunch of chances of winning instead of being sure of winning.</p><p>We do need this: &#8216;More precisely, for any N, eventually each of you will visit the &#8220;switch room&#8221; at least N times.&#8217; Now we are guaranteed that the census taker will eventually get the full count.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: J. Paul Daigle</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-6780</link> <dc:creator>J. Paul Daigle</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Jan 2011 20:26:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-6780</guid> <description>The sinner question doesn&#039;t really set the constraints clearly. The constraint isn&#039;t that one villager can&#039;t tell another villager about who is or isn&#039;t a sinner, the constraint is that the villagers may not communicate &lt;em&gt;any information at all&lt;/em&gt; about the number or identity of sinners except by leaving the village. The input information is that there is &lt;em&gt;at least one&lt;/em&gt; sinner.
If the villagers are allowed to count and communicate, then the problem could be solved on day one by dividing the villagers into groups of and having each villager communicate the number of sinners they see.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sinner question doesn&#8217;t really set the constraints clearly. The constraint isn&#8217;t that one villager can&#8217;t tell another villager about who is or isn&#8217;t a sinner, the constraint is that the villagers may not communicate <em>any information at all</em> about the number or identity of sinners except by leaving the village. The input information is that there is <em>at least one</em> sinner.</p><p>If the villagers are allowed to count and communicate, then the problem could be solved on day one by dividing the villagers into groups of and having each villager communicate the number of sinners they see.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Roland</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-6745</link> <dc:creator>Roland</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2010 07:51:56 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-6745</guid> <description>I realize I’m very late to this discussion, but wouldn’t a faster solution for the sinners problem be as follows:
There are N villagers.  At the first nightly meeting, each person writes down the number of sinners he/she sees and these counts are collected [by the priest perhaps].
One of three scenarios may occur:
*Scenario 1 (trivial): Each villager counts N-1 sinners.  In that case all villagers are sinners and must leave on that day.
*Scenario 2 (trivial): Each villager counts 0 sinners. There are no sinners in the village (The priest lied, which did not brand him a sinner however).
*Scenario 3: Some villagers count X sinners and others count X+1 (where X&lt;N).  In this case, all villagers who only counted X are themselves sinners and will leave on that day.
This would accomplish the filtering on the 1st day without one villager telling another [directly] about the observed mark.
It seems like this way of solving the problem results in an order of magnitude less complexity than the other posted solutions.
Lastly, it would seem that since we are guessing at the method used by the villager, there is no way of identifying the number of sinners in the original problem as it was stated, as if they had followed this method, 1 day would have been sufficient. (perhaps they spent the extra time packing?)
Or did I miss a constraint?
Great post/comments btw!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize I’m very late to this discussion, but wouldn’t a faster solution for the sinners problem be as follows:</p><p>There are N villagers.  At the first nightly meeting, each person writes down the number of sinners he/she sees and these counts are collected [by the priest perhaps].<br
/> One of three scenarios may occur:</p><p>*Scenario 1 (trivial): Each villager counts N-1 sinners.  In that case all villagers are sinners and must leave on that day.</p><p>*Scenario 2 (trivial): Each villager counts 0 sinners. There are no sinners in the village (The priest lied, which did not brand him a sinner however).</p><p>*Scenario 3: Some villagers count X sinners and others count X+1 (where X&lt;N).  In this case, all villagers who only counted X are themselves sinners and will leave on that day.</p><p>This would accomplish the filtering on the 1st day without one villager telling another [directly] about the observed mark.</p><p>It seems like this way of solving the problem results in an order of magnitude less complexity than the other posted solutions.</p><p>Lastly, it would seem that since we are guessing at the method used by the villager, there is no way of identifying the number of sinners in the original problem as it was stated, as if they had followed this method, 1 day would have been sufficient. (perhaps they spent the extra time packing?)</p><p>Or did I miss a constraint?</p><p>Great post/comments btw!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Roland</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-6744</link> <dc:creator>Roland</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2010 07:40:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-6744</guid> <description>I realize I&#039;m very late to this discussion, but wouldn&#039;t a faster solution for the sinners problem be as follows (assuming that at least 1 person is NOT a sinner):
At the first nightly meeting, each person writes down the number of sinners he/she sees and these counts are collected [by the priest perhaps].  The highest number recorded [N] will be the count of the number of sinners in the village, which corresponds to the count observed by all non-sinner.  This number is announced by the priest and each person who had counted N-1 sinners will know to leave.
This would accomplish the filtering on the 1st day without one villager telling another about the observed mark.
Seems like this way of solving the problem results in an order of magnitude less complexity than the other published results.
Also it would seem that since we are guessing at the method used by the villager, there is no way of identifying the number of sinners in the original problem as it was stated, as if they had followed this method, 1 day would have been sufficient. (perhaps they spent the extra time packing?)
Or did I miss a constraint?
Great post/comments btw!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize I&#8217;m very late to this discussion, but wouldn&#8217;t a faster solution for the sinners problem be as follows (assuming that at least 1 person is NOT a sinner):</p><p>At the first nightly meeting, each person writes down the number of sinners he/she sees and these counts are collected [by the priest perhaps].  The highest number recorded [N] will be the count of the number of sinners in the village, which corresponds to the count observed by all non-sinner.  This number is announced by the priest and each person who had counted N-1 sinners will know to leave.</p><p>This would accomplish the filtering on the 1st day without one villager telling another about the observed mark.</p><p>Seems like this way of solving the problem results in an order of magnitude less complexity than the other published results.</p><p>Also it would seem that since we are guessing at the method used by the villager, there is no way of identifying the number of sinners in the original problem as it was stated, as if they had followed this method, 1 day would have been sufficient. (perhaps they spent the extra time packing?)</p><p>Or did I miss a constraint?</p><p>Great post/comments btw!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Lulu</title><link>http://www.skorks.com/2010/06/when-a-mount-fuji-question-is-not-really-a-mount-fuji-question-are-you-as-smart-as-you-think-you-are/comment-page-1/#comment-6740</link> <dc:creator>Lulu</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:35:15 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.skorks.com/?p=1853#comment-6740</guid> <description>The main thing is to identify what the quiz/question is about. In the case of the sinners, it&#039;s obviously a test of deductive reasoning, like what the article has stated. Then you will know what to assume and what questions NOT to ask the interviewers. It will absolutely piss the interviewers off if you start bombarding them with irrelevant questions like &quot;how would you know if everyone&#039;s smart enough to figure it out? what if someone got sick and can&#039;t attend the gathering? What if the sinners refuse to leave?&quot;
Also, it&#039;s also important to note that the answer is not the most crucial part but how you work towards the answer. You can tell a lot about the interviewees in the process.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main thing is to identify what the quiz/question is about. In the case of the sinners, it&#8217;s obviously a test of deductive reasoning, like what the article has stated. Then you will know what to assume and what questions NOT to ask the interviewers. It will absolutely piss the interviewers off if you start bombarding them with irrelevant questions like &#8220;how would you know if everyone&#8217;s smart enough to figure it out? what if someone got sick and can&#8217;t attend the gathering? What if the sinners refuse to leave?&#8221;</p><p>Also, it&#8217;s also important to note that the answer is not the most crucial part but how you work towards the answer. You can tell a lot about the interviewees in the process.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
